What the hell... some people are so hellbent on negativity that if they touched my car they'd drain the battery.
Just because YOU learned that at GCSE levels, remember that not all the drooling Amercan Nascar fans (
) did too. In fact, he specifically STATED that it was a massive oversimplification. Did you expect him to write a thesis on years of study and post it on the forum? :doh: He's not treating anyone like a fool and at least you can tell he has passion for his work.In fact he said that too - and explained why it's NOT RIGHT that that's how the garage data shows upe in iRacing, and he hopes to fix it.
Really though Phil, he explained pretty precisely why this is and even hinted at why the fall off isn't as much as you'd think towards the end of a run - which he's still looking into.
He explained why the first laps should be the fastest (which they are, as you said). He also explained (when you actually piece together WHY he said so many things) that with that compound, combined with a greater cooling effect of a worn tire can bring some grip back near the end of a run - and that it may have to do with certain convection formulae, NOT wear as everyone is saying.
Really guys, I don't see why you're attacking this post as "nothing but PR". At least he talks, and just because he doesn't go into 80 levels of detail doesn't mean he's not trying to explain where things are at given the complaints going on. If you actually think about why he's bring out the information he is, it's a decent job of explaining as simply as possible why there are certain deficiencies people are seeing.
Rant wasn't bad.
What I was talking about when I said that iRacing is a better sim despite core flaws is really due to the fact that it just seems that that is literally the case. The end result is more correct for the moment (settings and pressures notwithstanding I might add, that's more icing on the cake at this point for either sim) in iR than in LFS ONLY in terms of reaction.
LFS has core faults too, really really big ones some of them similar to iRacing ironically (at least with the NTM)
Like you I don't care about the series (unless everything else is perfect, then all of a sudden it becomes cool) I'm still talking about the basic driving experience, and both sims seem to be closing in on the prize but from opposite directions. My rants about iR lately are mainly due to the fact that my expectations were high given their obvious advantages as a company.
What I was talking about when I said that iRacing is a better sim despite core flaws is really due to the fact that it just seems that that is literally the case. The end result is more correct for the moment (settings and pressures notwithstanding I might add, that's more icing on the cake at this point for either sim) in iR than in LFS ONLY in terms of reaction.
LFS has core faults too, really really big ones some of them similar to iRacing ironically (at least with the NTM)
Like you I don't care about the series (unless everything else is perfect, then all of a sudden it becomes cool) I'm still talking about the basic driving experience, and both sims seem to be closing in on the prize but from opposite directions. My rants about iR lately are mainly due to the fact that my expectations were high given their obvious advantages as a company.
Well now you're getting carried away again Phil...
iRacing is still a better sim but has core faults that frustrate me given the resources they have, and have made use of. I'm still really waiting to see how their NTM works on road cars because that will tell a lot more than putting it on much higher performance cars - man what a mistake. As has been said, the Skippy is very good now and they should've worked their way up the scale instead of putting the NTM on demanding cars with known deficiencies that could cloud the issue.
Listen, I ran LFS last night for an hour because it's still fun - yet I was taken aback by this slowly oscillating "bouncing" effect that the cars have when subjected to sustained lateral load. What the hell is that? if iRacing did that I'd be even more pissed than I am at them for making great claims that didn't come to pass for the most part in their purported miracle build. That's pretty distracting issue now that I've been running iRacing which doesn't do that!
By and large iRacing still drives more like a car than LFS does, though often feels less natural - if that makes sense. I first thought that statement was paradoxical but it's not. iRacing can feel fudged where LFS can feel just plain goofy. LFS still has a better approach and a more consistent physical feel to it, but it's just too far off to be believable right now, even though that implicit coherency lends itself to simpler immersion. iRacing is rougher around the noticable edges but generally finds itself in a more believable input reaction - kind of like the "kid rails at a bowling alley - the ball goes where it should even if it's awkward".
Things are at a bit of a stalemate but even though I feel a little betrayed by Kaemmer's nomenclature and bravado, I still think they do have the ability to pull this off. I forget who said that they're in essence not using their dough properly (probably Phil) but the song isn't over yet. And if one company has the NEED to do this right it's them.
They really should buy Scawen out for some insane cash that sets him for life and use his talent. They won't out of pride (there's your Americanism Phil) but that really would be the best for the product and the market. Give the guy a few mil, move him to nice house all expenses paid and profit from one of the best minds ever to grace sim-racing - and I think he tops Dave considering what he's done on his own.
iRacing is still a better sim but has core faults that frustrate me given the resources they have, and have made use of. I'm still really waiting to see how their NTM works on road cars because that will tell a lot more than putting it on much higher performance cars - man what a mistake. As has been said, the Skippy is very good now and they should've worked their way up the scale instead of putting the NTM on demanding cars with known deficiencies that could cloud the issue.
Listen, I ran LFS last night for an hour because it's still fun - yet I was taken aback by this slowly oscillating "bouncing" effect that the cars have when subjected to sustained lateral load. What the hell is that? if iRacing did that I'd be even more pissed than I am at them for making great claims that didn't come to pass for the most part in their purported miracle build. That's pretty distracting issue now that I've been running iRacing which doesn't do that!
By and large iRacing still drives more like a car than LFS does, though often feels less natural - if that makes sense. I first thought that statement was paradoxical but it's not. iRacing can feel fudged where LFS can feel just plain goofy. LFS still has a better approach and a more consistent physical feel to it, but it's just too far off to be believable right now, even though that implicit coherency lends itself to simpler immersion. iRacing is rougher around the noticable edges but generally finds itself in a more believable input reaction - kind of like the "kid rails at a bowling alley - the ball goes where it should even if it's awkward".
Things are at a bit of a stalemate but even though I feel a little betrayed by Kaemmer's nomenclature and bravado, I still think they do have the ability to pull this off. I forget who said that they're in essence not using their dough properly (probably Phil) but the song isn't over yet. And if one company has the NEED to do this right it's them.
They really should buy Scawen out for some insane cash that sets him for life and use his talent. They won't out of pride (there's your Americanism Phil) but that really would be the best for the product and the market. Give the guy a few mil, move him to nice house all expenses paid and profit from one of the best minds ever to grace sim-racing - and I think he tops Dave considering what he's done on his own.
Heh, that is interesting but I bet Ian's purpose in saying that is more along the lines of "don't feck up our relationship with the team by pissing them off via flooding them with questions they don't care about"
This is a massive cop out though when it comes to the known limits of computation and simple physics(tm).
Shot is right, looking at certain videos, and driving iRacing the last little while and see the bizarre effects of their "advanced tire model" on a handful of cars REALLY shows me that something is missing. Before the NTM I used to attritbute deficiency to the OTM but now that so much is supposedly taken care of; things are anywhere from marginally better to just as bad and their whole presentation of physicality has taken a convoluted turn that I did not anticipate. If anything, iRacing should be MORE predictable now but it is actually less so on the cars with NTM which shows me something is really, REALLY wrong with their entire approach.
Use you brains and think about this: if all their cars were actually processed and calculated in physical terms like LFS's cars are, then the whole business of "releasing the NTM on separate cars" should strike anyone with presence of mind as inherantly dodgy. That GT video, sporadic releases of "physics updates" here and there for certain cars, "tweaks of tires" to certain cars - the whole thing is just blindingly disappointing when you read between the lines.
The thing with LFS is that even though there is lots of shit wrong with it, when you treat individual vehicles similarly you achieve similar results because the fundamental mathematical approach to vehicular dynamics is still correct - or not just correct; it ACTUALLY FECKING EXISTS. As Hyper kind of alluded to iR's approach works with lower speed cars with no downforce. The Solstice is great even with the OTM and the skippy is good. But when you add more power, and more downforce, iRacing shit falls apart faster than a turd with no glutamine.
Don't get me wrong, I actually PREFER iRacing's low speed cars. But after that it's all downhill in a shocking way.
The LFS GTR cars are FAR more believable than the C6R or the FGT because they still feel like cars, not strange galactic organisms that have their own mind.
Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, .
Well,
....
When I first saw and experienced what was happening at iRacing I was really into it because of their vision, and the enticing amount of resources poured into it.
In my head I kind of envision "Scawen with some millions behind his passion".
Don't you agree that that would be bliss? I mean here we have had a visionary (an abundantly intelligent one) making a great, physically based sim for damn near a decade now. He had a couple buddies that could contribute things.
On the other side, you have a very talented pioneer of old tech in this same niche, who probably has the same passion or close to it but started a little earlier with older tech. Except he didn't develop any further until 2008 when someone threw insane amounts of the green his way.
As has already been said, using NR2003 code for a 2008+ product (and that 2003 code already being depricated, severly so at the time even) was a massive, massive mistake. I don't even understand how that was allowed to happen unless there was dollar signs in the eyes of those involved.
Running LFS, playing with LFSTweak etc in the past shows just how logically and physically LFS calculates everything and I'd taken it for granted that ANYONE worth their salt would have the same approach. Basic physics has basic laws that any physical modelling engine should adhere to, and to departed from or "fudge" those things is a pretty strange, embarassing circumstance to be willing to subject yourself to with an audience as critical as the sim-racing audience. Sure there are nitwits here like anywhere but by and large and almost by definition sim-racers are looking for something very specific and difficult to generate. I've pumped some dough into iRacing the last few years because I believed that they had the ability, passion, resources, and combined brainpower to achieve something amazing. I've given them reasonable doubt for a year, and this is the first year I will be pulling my contribution from their financial books.
I feel a little naive for all this, but that's how it goes. this is just an entertainment product and I enjoyed it a lot but if LFS ever gets revived it STILL has a number of advantages. It's clear iRacing now has no idea what those are, and Scawen still has better physical model with more features, and more believable behaviour over a wider ranger of circumstances. Which is both sad, and amazing, but that's what it is.
Genre is a bit of a joke isn't it?
....
When I first saw and experienced what was happening at iRacing I was really into it because of their vision, and the enticing amount of resources poured into it.
In my head I kind of envision "Scawen with some millions behind his passion".
Don't you agree that that would be bliss? I mean here we have had a visionary (an abundantly intelligent one) making a great, physically based sim for damn near a decade now. He had a couple buddies that could contribute things.
On the other side, you have a very talented pioneer of old tech in this same niche, who probably has the same passion or close to it but started a little earlier with older tech. Except he didn't develop any further until 2008 when someone threw insane amounts of the green his way.
As has already been said, using NR2003 code for a 2008+ product (and that 2003 code already being depricated, severly so at the time even) was a massive, massive mistake. I don't even understand how that was allowed to happen unless there was dollar signs in the eyes of those involved.
Running LFS, playing with LFSTweak etc in the past shows just how logically and physically LFS calculates everything and I'd taken it for granted that ANYONE worth their salt would have the same approach. Basic physics has basic laws that any physical modelling engine should adhere to, and to departed from or "fudge" those things is a pretty strange, embarassing circumstance to be willing to subject yourself to with an audience as critical as the sim-racing audience. Sure there are nitwits here like anywhere but by and large and almost by definition sim-racers are looking for something very specific and difficult to generate. I've pumped some dough into iRacing the last few years because I believed that they had the ability, passion, resources, and combined brainpower to achieve something amazing. I've given them reasonable doubt for a year, and this is the first year I will be pulling my contribution from their financial books.
I feel a little naive for all this, but that's how it goes. this is just an entertainment product and I enjoyed it a lot but if LFS ever gets revived it STILL has a number of advantages. It's clear iRacing now has no idea what those are, and Scawen still has better physical model with more features, and more believable behaviour over a wider ranger of circumstances. Which is both sad, and amazing, but that's what it is.
Genre is a bit of a joke isn't it?
Why the hell can't they just let a car be downloaded but only used if it shows that it's been purchased - using their current online authentication?
What?
Did the joke fly well over my head or are you actually comparing the two tasks and the relative time-frame taken by each developer?
Economic Left/Right: -4.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.15
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.15
Bhaw.
Hurray for logical upper limits on equation results, when the rest of the math doesn't exist yet.
:doh:
Has anyone tried the DrivingVanishY parameter? Which way moves the view "up"? In LFS I like to make it so I can just see what I need to see in the cars and the rest is all the track. Thanks.
Thanks himself I will give that a try. It's not what I am after but it might help a bit. I just hate that they don't let you move your view within reasonable amounts within the cockpit. LFS does that on all axes of course and also lets you change the gforce effect on the view. Small feature, big impact.
Spot on.
But they're not serving up shit and claiming it's prime steak. More like serving up shit, claiming it's prime steak, and then half way through the meal "remembering to tell you" that it's not AAA beef actually: "we couldn't get it delivered in time, and our master chef had the day off and the new guy dropped in on the floor by accident... but it's still good right?"
Like you said I really like everything else about the sim except I'm getting frustrated with.... the SIM PART :doh:.
Tried the Skip last night finally after being disillusioned by the FGT. I will admit that the Skip does feel better and drive like a normal one should now, so the NTM does have a lot of things right JUST in terms of how it reacts to the car, and I found the FFB on that car very good - ironically it feels a lot like LFS. So as others have said this is not a step backwards (at least in terms of driving feel; temperatures etc notwithstanding) but not nearly a "revolution".
I ran LFS for a while last night, and I really got into the XRR, didn't want to put my wheel away just hot-lapping alone at SO LONG. For some reason LFS cockpits also just looks better in 3D (in tin tops) , it's something to do with the being locked into position in the iRacing vehicles... I really hate that in iRacing.
Only sensible thing in your post
Delicious.
That's exactly where I was at, until today. What a massive disappointment. Oh well, I gave them a couple years of dough, no harm no fowl - now to wait for the LFS patch.
Anyone notice that the last 5 years, all we do on PCs whether it's RPGs, racing sims, or what have you, is wait for patches? I don't want to race LFS until the ridiculous setups are at least curtailed.
+1 Phil/Ray/everyone.
This is a big opportunity for LFS as well if something were to be around the corner, Scawen could nail the market for anyone who knows anything about driving. 100% agree Phil the FGT is a silly joke, I'd expect that around 2002 - at that time it would've been good.
I have no problem with iRacing's structure or their business model or anything like that, but don't throw us this shit and act like it's some amazing step forward when it's not. Maybe if they'd have started with a physical model to begin with they'd have a clue how primitive this is; it really is laughable (and a bit of an insult) to anyone who's been involved in sim racing for any length of time that involves a period PRIOR to iRacing's release.
What a sad, sad, state of affairs. And 100 more "kudos" to Scawen for doing what he's done already. Part of me wishes he'd hire a little real help for the "presentation" side of things since he clearly has a focus and a passion for the underlying fundamental components, but I'd rather drive a silly looking LFS than a graphically better iRacing with much better sound after today.
This is a big opportunity for LFS as well if something were to be around the corner, Scawen could nail the market for anyone who knows anything about driving. 100% agree Phil the FGT is a silly joke, I'd expect that around 2002 - at that time it would've been good.
I have no problem with iRacing's structure or their business model or anything like that, but don't throw us this shit and act like it's some amazing step forward when it's not. Maybe if they'd have started with a physical model to begin with they'd have a clue how primitive this is; it really is laughable (and a bit of an insult) to anyone who's been involved in sim racing for any length of time that involves a period PRIOR to iRacing's release.
What a sad, sad, state of affairs. And 100 more "kudos" to Scawen for doing what he's done already. Part of me wishes he'd hire a little real help for the "presentation" side of things since he clearly has a focus and a passion for the underlying fundamental components, but I'd rather drive a silly looking LFS than a graphically better iRacing with much better sound after today.
Yeah, this is pretty bad.
Little sad that 8 years following the sim racing "scene" and this is the best that they can come up with. It's also crazy that Scawen came up with something (meaning a physical model) that's already better than this with a fraction of the resources; he does seem to have a better understanding overall of what the major problems are.
DK created a model that feels like an earlier version of LFS but with different flaws altogether. That being said LFS feels better right now in my opinion... I was actually really looking forward to this release of iRacing but it's largely a side step from what I can tell. I'm losing my ability to take them seriously considering the directions they're going at the moment.
On the other hand, LFS (as I stated in a thread earlier this year) still feels "good" but is lacking in so many "toppings" as it were, and I still don't understand what the feck the problem is after all this time with NO graphical updates, and no real useful changes that pertain the simulation aspect of the game for this amount of time. But it's not my baby, that's just my opinion.
Might as well just say piss on this idea and get a car like Tristan and just do the real thing - it doesn't seem like anyone can move this genre forward with any real gusto or authenticity, I guess it really must be just too hard.
Little sad that 8 years following the sim racing "scene" and this is the best that they can come up with. It's also crazy that Scawen came up with something (meaning a physical model) that's already better than this with a fraction of the resources; he does seem to have a better understanding overall of what the major problems are.
DK created a model that feels like an earlier version of LFS but with different flaws altogether. That being said LFS feels better right now in my opinion... I was actually really looking forward to this release of iRacing but it's largely a side step from what I can tell. I'm losing my ability to take them seriously considering the directions they're going at the moment.
On the other hand, LFS (as I stated in a thread earlier this year) still feels "good" but is lacking in so many "toppings" as it were, and I still don't understand what the feck the problem is after all this time with NO graphical updates, and no real useful changes that pertain the simulation aspect of the game for this amount of time. But it's not my baby, that's just my opinion.
Might as well just say piss on this idea and get a car like Tristan and just do the real thing - it doesn't seem like anyone can move this genre forward with any real gusto or authenticity, I guess it really must be just too hard.
Some people look into products PRIOR to purchase! 
Heh,
This actually made news in my city today, this far away. That's gotta be embarrassing mm?
This actually made news in my city today, this far away. That's gotta be embarrassing mm?
Yeah I just tried to paste the whole thing too, it's 2400 characters too long
But not just "calling people incompetent", rather; pointing out legitimate incompetency. Quite refreshing I've missed that around here
I have no real idea how you could put a car out of control no matter what you did at that speed; unless it was pure ice. Any other condition even a '77 Cadillac could handle with ease (though possibly some humorous tire squeal in that case). You must've been going faster.
I have no idea how I would react, I don't think anyone does.
Yeah I was thinking more like 30-40 people, not just a few. Anyway don't get bent out of shape, I never said anything was "easy" - was just thinking out loud, nothing more.
Just can't believe how terrible this is 
I don't have words for it.
I'm not meaning this with any disrespect whatsoever but I kind of wonder why some people didn't just mob the guy and beat him to a pulp? Guns or not, not much he could do against a mob; I know people would've still gotten shot but maybe not 90+ dead
I don't have words for it.I'm not meaning this with any disrespect whatsoever but I kind of wonder why some people didn't just mob the guy and beat him to a pulp? Guns or not, not much he could do against a mob; I know people would've still gotten shot but maybe not 90+ dead
Admitted fail, good call. My bad.
Hydroscopic not "hygroscropic" btw
Weight off of one tire = no skid mark (and the one thin one supports that idea). Maybe he was racing another car or something who knows, or maybe someone skidded to a halt when they saw a flaming wreck in the bushes.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG